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2 Posts in 2 Topics by 1925 Members Latest Member: SkepemumHek
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Author Topic: Jesus, the redeemer of Sin?  (Read 8693 times)
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« on: August 15, 2008, 09:23:48 PM »

To simply prove that Jesus(as)(peace be upon him) is not the redeemer of sin and that there is no such thing as being born with original sin through the bible we turn to Ezekiel ch:18 V:20- The soul that sinneth it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So in other words the son is not responsible for the fathers sins and the father is not responsible for the sons sins. So we won't be questioned for Adam eating from the tree and he won't be questioned about our sins.

But Christians still say that you have to be redeemed through Jesus Christ to be saved as stated In Romans Ch: 3 V: 23- 25- For all have sinned and come short of the Glory; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith is his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of GOD. Also as stated in 1Peter ch:2 v:24 and Galatians ch:3 v:13, because man still sins. But now we go back Book of Ezekiel we something else.

Ezekiel ch:18 v:4-9- Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine the soul who sins shall die. If a man is righteous and does what is just and right if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge,  commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.

And in Ezekiel ch:18 v:21- But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

So simply put, do good deeds and you will see heaven and if you sin, repent by stopping the bad deeds and do good ones and you will see heaven God willing.

Now they might still come forth and say that an animal sacrifice is needed because in the old testament they repented by sacrifice animals, and that's why Jesus died, to be the final sacrifice for mankind. But what is so funny about that is, not all repentance required a animal sacrifice for sin. When the law was given to Moses (Musa(as)), animal sacrifices for Sin offering was made for unintentional sins!!

Leviticus:Ch:4 V:1-3- The LORD said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands- "If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the LORD a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed.
Leviticus:Ch:4 V:13-14- If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty. When they become aware of the sin they committed, the assembly must bring a young bull as a sin offering and present it before the Tent of Meeting.
Leviticus: Ch:4 Verse:22-23- When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a male goat without defect.
Leviticus:Ch:4 V:27-28- If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect.

However they will argue that in Chapter 5 of Leviticus it says "when someone sins even if he is unaware of his sin, he is guilty and still has to do a animal sacrifice, so all sin needs sacrifice, because of the word unaware it's giving the claim that when you do sin, you make a animal sacrifice, even if you are unaware you sinned and then are made aware". So how is it that we respond, simple, by saying lets take a look at Chapter 6 of Leviticus and see what that says. Also why and when animal sacrifices are made for sin. But before we do that lets go back to chapter 5 and examine something.

Leviticus:Ch:5 V:4-5- When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned  and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering.
Leviticus:C:5 V:7- If he cannot afford a lamb, he is to bring two doves or two young pigeons to the LORD as a penalty for his sin—one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Leviticus:Ch:5 V:14-15- The LORD said to Moses:"When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel.
Leviticus:Ch:5 V:17-18- If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible. He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value.

So when they were commanded by God to sacrifice an animal for sin or for those who follow in context, unintentional sin, it was because it was prescribed as a penalty not because the blood of the animal cleansed them from sin. Even though the process of sprinkling blood on the side of the alter and on the horns was sometimes part of the ritual, it was not the only step that needed to be taken to make a anointment for sin, sometimes even skipped completely. People often many times quote
Leviticus:Ch:17 V:11 out of context, which says: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. First off,the verse is found on the Laws of Dietary not on the Laws of Anointment. Second, the verse in context is talking about how blood is forbidden from being eaten, because the ONLY use for blood is making anointment, it's not stating the fact that blood is the only means of anointment. If so, then we got a problem in the rules of anointment where is says: to make "Burnt offerings" for a means of anointment. But that's not the case. From verse 10-12 it's saying don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals. But the meaning of this verse is widely misused used by Christian's who quote Hebrews:Ch:9 V:22 to cross reference their claim. (Their are more verse they try to use and cross reference them to the old testament, but I won't get into it now. But if someone challenges me with them, I will gladly refute them with the best of my knowledge). Now, if you could not afford these animals you had to bring a substitution, like fine flour. It was a way for God to teach you a lesson. For example (for those who think it's for every sin): When a child misbehaves in the class room and a teacher puts him or her in timeout, why does she do it? Because it was a punishment for the child's misbehavior. So now the child knows that a penalty will be given out when he or she misbehaves, so now he will learn from his mistakes and try not to misbehave anymore. Now a example for those who follow context: When you go out with your friends and you guys are hanging out and all of a sudden someone pulls out liquor and everyone starts drinking, although you are not drinking it is a sin for you to be there. You never planned on it happening, but it did. You fell into sin unintentionally. So once again, when they preformed an animal sacrifice, it was because they were literally sacrificing your belongings, not because the blood is the only means of anointment. So God punished them by taking your stuff away. More proof on the concept of sacrifice:

Leviticus:Ch:5 V:7- - If he cannot afford a lamb, he is to bring two doves or two young pigeons to the LORD as a penalty for his sin—one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Leviticus:Ch:5 V:11-13- If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. It is a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven. NO BLOOD NEEDED!!
Numbers:Ch:31 V:50- So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD. A means of Anointing by Gold. NO BLOOD NEEDED!!
Numbers:Ch:16 V:46- Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD; the plague has started.  NO BLOOD NEEDED!!

(Note: Animal Sacrifices or any Sacrifice rituals were not only done for sin offerings. It depended on your intention and situation. Like for example: Fellowship Offering, was done to show gratitude and thanks to God. For those who read the scripture in context when you sinned knowingly you were to make an Guilt offering not SIN offering, I will get into that next. There were Burnt offerings: which were done to please God with a wonderful Aroma. Grain offerings were also made).

So now that we know why sacrifices were made lets see in context when they were made. We know that for a person who sins unintentionally, he is to go straight to the priest with his sin offering. But if he sins unintentionally according to God's holy things he makes a guilt offering. Why a guilt offering and not sin offering:
Leviticus:Ch:5 V:16- He must make restitution for what he has failed to do in regard to the holy things, add a fifth of the value to that and give it all to the priest, who will make atonement for him with the ram as a guilt offering, and he will be forgiven. So there there were conditions that needed to be meet before they could be anointed by the priest. Could this also be the case for people that sinned knowingly?

Leviticus:Ch:6 V:1-7- The LORD said to Moses: "If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving his neighbor about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him, or if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do- when he thus sins and becomes guilty, he must return what he has stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to him, or the lost property he found, or whatever it was he swore falsely about. He must make restitution in full, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the owner on the day he presents his guilt offering. And as a penalty he must bring to the priest, that is, to the LORD, his guilt offering, a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven for any of these things he did that made him guilty."

So sacrifices could not make amends for a your sin unless the person making the offering sincerely repented before making the sacrifice and made restitution to any person harmed by the sin. And notice the category it's defined as "Guilt offering" why? Because the way to be forgiven was to through prayer and repentance, the sacrifice was made as a penalty for your actions. Also the animal was eaten after sacrificed as not to waste, and only the priest and family members could eat from it. Furthermore sacrifices could only be done in the temple of God or an appointed place by God.
Deuteronomy:Ch:12 V:13-14-Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the LORD will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you. (Note: Burnt offerings were part of the anointing of Sin and Guilt sacrifices, BUT could be done alone as to please God with a pleasing aroma.)

Even though many Prophets of God in the old testament made animal sacrifices to God in many places, when the Jews received the the laws of Moses, one of the new laws stipulated that Jews were no longer allowed to bring sacrifices to God just anywhere. And Jesus said: Matthew:Ch:5 V:17- Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. And it's impossible for the law to been have completed because Jesus second coming has not happened yet, so they are still under the law.

Also note, that when you present to a Christian that sacrifices could only be made at the temple they will produce this verse: Matthew:Ch:12 V:7- I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. But for some reason Matthew is the only Gospel to produce this verse. Furthermore the earliest gospel is traced back to about 65-70 c.e. Just around the time the temple was destroyed by the Romans. So it's rather strange that this is considered to be the first gospel and, it's the only one to have this verse. Could it be appealing to a defeated Jewish coward, who's morality was crushed, who's believe system was in question? The temple was adored by the Jews, what better way to reach them. The reason why sacrifice was prescribed for sin (as a penalty) defeats the whole purpose on why Christians believe Jesus was sent to die for there sins:
John:Ch:3 v:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. So in other words God so loved us that because we sin he want's us to be saved so He sacrifices His only begotten son to die for our sins. Completely opposite of the Old testament. It defeats the purpose of being thought the valuable lesson of not to sin. In fact, even if it is not preached, and I'm not saying it is but, by the acceptances of this believe system, it is why you see the majority of Christians become drunks, gamble, go to bars, strip clubs, drug dealers, who do drugs, etc. They have nothing to really worry about, they are not held accountable for there actions because their burden of sin is put on Jesus. They will even try to say "Yes because of original sin that's the reason he was sacrificed". So you mean to tell me that Jesus was sent for original sin about 6,000 years after Adam committed his sin, and God allowed all of earth to be in sin, so no matter how much they repented, sacrificed in God's name, prayed, did good deeds, etc. it was all in vain? Where the Jews lied to by God when he told them in:
Ezekiel:Ch:18 V:30-31- Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Why weren't they doing a sacrifice every single day? Why weren't they informed about original sin, and why is it introduced by Saint. Augustine of Hippo 300 years after Jesus? Even before Augustine Hippo a man by the name of Saint. Irenaeus presented the theory of original sin about 150 years after Jesus. But he was laughed at, and at one point he was considered a threat to the Church because of his Gnostic believes. Original sin was on of them. Saint Augustine reopened the door for it about 200 years later and in the second of the two meetings held at the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. after his death, it was adopted there.

Ok enough of the history lesson, let me conclude by making it clear that the people of the old testament could repent form sin without a sacrifice of a animal.
Hoesa:Ch:14 V:3- Take with you words, and turn to the Lord. Say to Him, forgive all iniquity and receive us graciously, so we will offer the words of our lips instead of calves.

Even during King Solomon time, after the completion of the temple King Solomon Said: 1Kings:Ch:8 V:46-50- When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near; and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their conquerors and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly'; and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their fathers, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name; then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause. And forgive your people, who have sinned against you; forgive all the offenses they have committed against you, and cause their conquerors to show them mercy.So king Solomon, who built God's temple was asking God to let prayer be a means of anointment for sin.

Psalms:Ch:32 V:5- Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD "— and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah

So in conclusion, although sacrifices were done in the old testament for a means of forgiveness it was not always necessary. And the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time but stopped.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:34:37 PM by MoMahdi » Logged
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